Your Health Your Way
James Ross M.D. shares insights on health, business, and life
Your Health Your Way
Former Christian Radio Host Shares His Story Of Battling Depression (Ft. Craig Westhoff)
We trace Craig’s journey from a celebrated radio voice to a honest account of depression, anxiety, and a moment that broke oppression, then we walk the slow path of renewing the mind with science, silence, and spiritual direction. The goal is freedom through attention, embodiment, and community, not performance.
• framing the scale of anxiety and depression worldwide
• Craig’s hidden struggle behind public success
• confession, community and the turning question of permission to be human
• a visionary release and the start of soul mastery
• what spiritual direction is and how sessions flow
• silence as a tool for attention and presence
• anxiety as data and story, not identity
• renewing the mind through neuroplasticity and embodied practice
• parts language to move from stuck to curious
• exercise, sleep, nutrition and meds as body-first support
• identity, authenticity and living from the inside out
• choosing response over reaction and letting light in
Reach out for help. Talk to someone. God’s grace is right there. He’s willing to meet you right where you’re at.
Follow on us on socials and watch this podcast on Youtube - https://linktr.ee/Dr.JamesRoss
In through the nose and then hum. Okay. Ready? One, two, three. Cool. Little butterfly right here. Yeah. These points, man. Just massaging. We'll breathe in for four. And then we do this, dude.
SPEAKER_02:Right on. I'm there. That's awesome. That's good stuff. That is good stuff. I love the various. I mean, love that that does with our vagal tones, you know, there's parasympathetics and getting all of that. Humming's my favorite. It's it's proven to reduce anxiety. People think humming is just this eastern weird weirdness, but it's but it really does help to calm you down. Friends, welcome again to the Your Health, Your Way podcast, where we like to have meaningful conversations about the things that matter most, about health, about healing and wholeness in a broken world. And today we're going to be talking about something that really affects everybody in some way, shape, or form. We're going to be talking about behavioral health. More specifically, we're going to be talking about mental, emotional, and spiritual health. The World Health Organization has stated that one out of eight people globally is affected by some form of mental disorder. We know that since the pandemic, since 2020, we have seen anxiety and depression skyrocket. And even among Christians, the struggle is real. People are suffering in silence. And that shouldn't be. But here's the deal hope is possible. Healing is definitely possible. And today we're going to be hearing a very powerful story from somebody who's walked through that valley and has found freedom on the other side. My guest today is someone that uh that I've known for from afar, many years now. He is a well-known former Christian DJ, and his voice has reached millions of people. And behind the microphone, Craig, though, had his own battles that he faced.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And today, I'm happy to report that he is the founder and director of the Mesh Objective. It's a ministry dedicated to mental, emotional, and spiritual health. And Craig, thank you so much, man, for being here today.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for letting me hang out with you. And thanks for the coffee. Absolutely. Anytime. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_02:Definitely. So, Craig, let's start with your background. I would love to hear uh a little bit more about maybe how you got into radio and what that season of life was like when you were pursuing radio as a career.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that would that's pretty uh straightforward. I was uh 18 years old in high school, a senior, and it I uh I wasn't the best student. I was I was the friendly, I was voted most friendliest. I can see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Had a lot of fun with that. But um a guidance counselor by the name of Susan uh suggested I try out for a local radio show in a small town in Wisconsin, Wisconsin Rapids. And um I tried out for it and got it. And I graduated, I did the show, graduate from high school. I go to college because that's what you're supposed to do. I lasted a month, so it was a$7,000 month. Left that and then went into broadcast school in Minneapolis, and ever since then just did the radio thing. My first gig was in Roseau, Minnesota. It was like 10 miles south of Canada, a small town, and and uh it was 30 years collectively. I retired in 2016, 25 of those years contemporary Christian music. Yeah, so pretty simple. Just uh guidance counselor spotted a gift, and it's so interesting. Yeah, that's a whole other subject, but we it usually how often does it take someone else to spot something in you? So true, yeah. And no one else had no clue. And then she said, Hey, I think you might have a voice here. Let's do something. Got a great voice. Well, thanks. I appreciate that. I could just listen to you talk, man.
SPEAKER_02:I appreciate that. You too. God's bless you. You know, it's interesting how our gifts it's said that our gifts and our talents make room for us. Yeah. And you're right, sometimes people will see that or discover that, and even sometimes before we even see it. Um, but you were inspiring a lot of people publicly, and privately you were you were struggling. There was something deeper going on. Oh, yeah. Um, tell us a little bit about that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So 30-year radio career, 10 of those years. I had uh was diagnosed with clinical depression, what I just call crippling anxiety, uh, chronic anxiety. One doctor even mentioned schizophrenic tendencies. I was really struggling, all while hosting a top-rated uh contemporary Christian morning radio show. And hosting that space, I became two people. There was the radio DJ, Craig West, and then off the air, it was so the happy, go-lucky, convivial, jovial radio star, whatever, you know, Craig West, and then Craig West off, uh depressed, so anxious, uh debilitating anxiety, uh, to the point where I self-harmed. I cut myself with a knife, I abused alcohol for three years. Uh obviously, I engaged with counselors, psychologists, psychiatrists. I was on at one point lithium lamictal lexifro affects her for six years. And uh, and it was just a dark journey uh uh to to quote Job, the book of Job, of deep shadow without form. I just, you know, it's hard to, you can't, you can't grab a shadow. Right. I tried to, and people wouldn't understand, and then well-meaning people would say, Oh, you're just narcissistic, uh, you just have a demon. Uh, so I went to all these healing deliverance things, which have their their purpose, sure, but to no avail, seemingly. And uh it seemed like the journey just kept getting darker and darker. And I was trying to stay strong because I I knew I was uh I was sinking deeper and I didn't want to lose my family in my mind. I wanted to hold on to my job. That's why I started drinking, try to allay things, I self-medicate, all that stuff. And of course, by God's grace, uh you usually uh come to the end of all that stuff, and and I did, and my wife discovered the alcohol abuse, and she's a saint, she's just amazing. We've been together 35 years, and uh so wrapping it up, I it was 10 years of of darkness, and it just seemed to get darker and darker and darker. And I tried all that I knew to try to get out of it, but it seemed like at in that 10-year window, it seemed like it was just getting worse, man. It was just like good grief. I could barely I'd cry before my morning show. Get on the show, be the DJ, get off the show, cry some more. Yeah, drink. It was That's exhausting. Oh, dude, it was so exhausting. In inauthenticity is exhausting, it's a parasitic vine. It is, and I I didn't know who I was. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So you've tried all the different things that you're supposed to try, that you're supposed to do, and yet still you found a there was still a bottom, a rock bottom experience, probably of some type. Yeah. That made you say, Hey, this hasn't been working for me. This hasn't helped, this hasn't, this hasn't cured my problem. Was that when maybe did faith play a role? Say that again. Did your faith play a role in in trying to figuring out the solution? Or what role did did that play in this? Because obviously, you you talk about the Lord, you know the Lord, you talk about spiritual things, you you minister to people, you're encouraging people. What was what was that piece where you said, uh-huh, in that moment where you said, did you turn to, you know, what did you turn to? Who did you turn to? How did it come together for you to be able to start putting the pieces back together? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We were a part of a great question. We were part of a vibrant house church community. So uh one thing I was really good at in that context was just letting my heart out. I would just confess sin and suicidal ideation. And so I had this awesome group. Even today, if when I meet with a new client, the first thing I ask is, tell me about your community. And what's a bummer, James, is most of the time they don't have one, right? So thank God I had a really strong community, did the counselors, psychologists, all that stuff, and then church. And and so faith played a massive role, but uh, does this make sense? There was also a disconnect in my faith. Uh I there there was an invitation to go deeper, to uh come to know who I am in Christ, who Christ is in me, without all the performance. Like, who am I when I'm just alone in a room not doing a thing? And so I I did all the right spiritual, religious, church things. And part of what was so confusing is, and the darkness just increased all the more. But yeah, community, confession, did all that I knew. But there was a moment, there was a a profound moment uh where my healing journey began. I don't say I was healed right fully, but all of a sudden the door opened up.
SPEAKER_02:The process was kind of uh the journey or the part the process was unfolding, and you were just taking that next step.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it was so can I share it now? Yeah, it was so cool. Um my wife was ministering in Greece, I was home alone, bloated with lithium, you know. Man, uh, and I'm on the couch, and I could get emotional. That's all right. I always get emotional over this. I mean, this is years ago, dude. It's so real. I'm on the couch and I hear a voice, and I'm not saying it's audible, but I hear a voice to ask a question. And the question was this. The question was, how human are you allowed to be? And it just landed. And I realized the answer was already there. There was something in me, James, where I I thought as a Christian I had to be more than human, superhuman. Wow. You take those beautiful scriptures more than conquerors, but then we misapply them, right? I thought I had to be someone other than me. And I sat with that question. I'd like to say, questions send us on a quest. Right? That's good. Questions, right? That's good. So I sat with that question. My wife is in Greece. I'm sitting there thinking, how human am I allowed to be, right? And you're just feeling the question form you. So there was the question and then a statement. Right after the question, I heard this. Behold, Father, I've given them your glory. And that was part of a prayer that Jesus shares in the Gospel of John about his disciples, about all of us. And I thought, well, if I have your glory, why am I like this right now? What's going on? What is this? And Jesus said that before his death and resurrection. I've given them your glory, which word study and all that stuff. We're talking about God's doxa, God's original intent and opinion about you, God's good opinion about you. Jesus said, I've given them your good opinion, Lord, your glory. Jesus is God's mind made up about us, right? And there he is. And so I'm sitting there. How human am I allowed to be? I already have God's glory. And it's like that was a hot tub that God just threw me in and just said, Rest in that a while. Wow. And it became so transformative. My wife, uh, do you remember a thing called um Skype? Yes. Yes. So I Skyped my wife uh in Greece. And James, it was so transformative. She she could tell something was going on. She's like, what's going on? I said, something's happening. I don't know, I don't know what's happening.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:But I can tell something is happening. I'm feeling uh something lifting. I don't know what. I didn't have words for it yet. And then later that week, I'm at the office. I just finished my morning show. Now I'm in my office prepping for the next day's show. And when I say this, I this does not happen to me. Okay, and I don't know how to describe it. Some would call it an open vision. I don't know. I'm just at my computer doing work and I'm sober, everything's fine. And I saw uh a vision, and I was I was in a tar pit up to my neck, and an angel comes down and reaches under my arms and slowly lifts me up. As he's lifting me up, I'm coming out clean. Wow, there's no tar being stuck to me at all. Wow. He lifts me up and just disappears with me. Wow. Dude, that is powerful. And in that moment, I heard a voice say, It's over. And I knew right away what I would describe as a spirit of oppression or depression was done.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:And it was. It was so drastic, my body started to have these odd symptoms with the meds I was on. It was like rejecting it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh didn't tell anybody for the first year for a whole year except my wife, because it was so drastic. And I just thought, well, people, they're just gonna think I'm insane. And people thought I was in, I thought I was insane, you know. I thought I was going insane. I had a demonic vision that's that said I was going insane when this all began. That's a whole other story. Wow. Anyway, dude, you know, how human are you allowed to be? Behold, Father, I get in your glory. I'm at work, it's over. And then it's like this. And this is just my own imagination. I'm describing the experience. And then it was as if Jesus said, uh, I've set you free from the spirit. Now I'm going to teach you how to manage your soul. And in in the Greek, that's the word dunamis. Well, dunamis stands for power for miraculous signs and wonders. But the third definition is moral goodness, and then this right here, excellence of soul. Wow. And I just thought Jesus is the only one who mastered his soul. And what I mean by that is mind, will, and emotions. And so it's like Jesus was like, okay, now I'm going to take you on an educational journey because you come to, almost like the prodigal son. Yes. You come to your senses. Another translation states you become conscious. He became conscious. It's like I woke up. Yeah, I was just going to say, your soul woke up. Wake up, O sleeper, and rise from the dead, and the light of Christ will illuminate you. Ephesians, I felt like I came to. And ever since then, it's just it's been an educational journey. I love this statement that I share with everyone. We're only ever learning, practicing, and becoming. And ever since then, that was 2008. I've been studying more like an autodidact. You know, I've been studying, doing a lot of research. I did get specific training and spiritual direction and a mind-body protocol to alleviate negative emotional trauma. And I'm just like, what was that? I want to know. I want to understand what, frankly, the hell that was, so I can help other people through this as well.
SPEAKER_02:That's amazing. Dude. That is that is amazing. Thanks for sharing that, Craig. That is absolutely powerful. That was crazy. Um, what a transformation, you know, that you you struggled for all those years, and then you reached a point, you know, you got to the end of yourself, really, and it just God showed up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And and you know what's uh I think unique in uh among many things is uh I had I was done asking God to deliver me. Right. I just it I almost got delivered from asking to be delivered, right? If that makes sense. I'm like, Lord, I love you. Uh I'm in your hands. I'm just gonna try my best. I stopped drinking, you know. I was honest with my wife, beautiful reconciliation. I was just doing what I knew to do. And he was so kind to just show up when I least expected it. People always, well, did you ask for it? Did you pray? I'm like, no. I mean, technically, maybe I did pray over the years, and then he maybe he was thinking, oh, yeah, I'll get to that. I'll I'll be over here. And so delayed response, who knows, whatever. All I know is he just showered me with his kindness that that moment.
SPEAKER_02:Just uh, yeah, just a just a touch of God in that moment. Why not earlier? Why did it happen how it happened? Who knows, right? Who know, who knows? But the cool thing it happened.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I I think uh, you know, I know my wife had a uh uh psych ward on speed dial, and uh maybe I was headed that route. Uh I actually tried to get in a psych ward once, but that's a that's a crazy story. It's a funny story. You want to hear real fast? Yeah, go ahead. Uh so I'm I'm hosting hosting this top-rated Christian radio show, and I'm just miserable. I would say I have a great distaste for my life. Right? So I call the psychiatric unit, and and I'll just say I I uh I was doing the morning show in KXOJ in Tulsa at the time, and I call. Hello, such and such unit. It's like hi, I I really need some help. Okay, thank you for calling. What's your name? Craig. There's a long pause. She says, Is this Craig from the radio? And I'm like, Oh, yeah. I'm like, Yeah, yeah. She says, Oh, I just love you. You're so crazy. And I said, Well, that's why I'm calling. So I hung up because that was unprofessional of her. She she shouldn't have done that. But so I'm like, oh, I'm not going to. I hung up and I'm honestly laughing out loud. And I felt like Jesus James was laughing with me. And he was like, hey, Craig, we're gonna get through this. We don't have to take ourselves so seriously. It's like we'll we'll get through it. I'll never forget that moment.
SPEAKER_02:That's that's comical. Yeah. Um but uh so you you've you've experienced you're obviously you've walked through some things and you've you've learned things and you've taught yourself some things to the point where now you want to help others as you just uh shared. And that's where you started diving deeper into kind of bringing merging these worlds of the soul and the spirit, let's say the the mental, emotional, spiritual dimension. And you founded something beautiful. You founded the mesh objective. And tell us a little bit about what that means and what that's about.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, great question. So the mesh objective really is all my wife's idea. She's because before it became the mesh objective, it was a coup omissions. And we still do this today, a lot of ministry in the Middle East, Europe, UK, all of that stuff. Wow. So uh and and and we found ourselves throughout the 25 some odd years we've been, my wife and I have been ministering together, we found our this common thread of always tending to people's souls. You know, just mind, will, emotion, like what's really going on. And we do the conferences and other big fun stuff, and it's all beautiful. But at the end of the day, we'd end up at a table and sharing tears over food and tending to people's souls. And this this would just increase to the point where my wife decided she's so brilliant. She's like, we're changing the name of Akuo Missions. We're gonna be we're the mesh objective.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:Mental, emotional, spiritual health. And I thought that is just brilliant. And so with that, uh 1 Thessalonians 5, 23, 24 reveal that our entire being is spirit, soul, and body. Yeah, I love that. I love that verse. Dude, isn't that awesome, man? So beautiful. And so the mesh objective uh is uh we and some friends who are spiritual directors, soul care workers, uh, some life coach, I get Enneagram, stuff like that, primarily spiritual directors. Uh but then in the midst of that, uh, there's we offer spiritual direction and mental and emotional health coaching, and uh, and like I said, uh a healing protocol uh to alleviate negative emotional trauma that our bodies store. The body does keep a score.
SPEAKER_02:We'll talk a little bit more about about that later. Right on a bit, but yeah, I'm with you, I'm tracking.
SPEAKER_00:And so so that's it. But we we like to begin though, e any session, meeting, uh we like to begin with spiritual direction. Can you explain to our audience kind of what a spiritual director is? Let's talk about what that means. Sure. Tech technically it's not counseling, it's not therapy, those are other beautiful disciplines and modalities. Spiritual direction is comprised of three things: intentional, or at least the invitation to intentional silence, questions, uh, or listening, and then questions. The director uh asking questions to the directee. Why? In simplicity, to reveal God's presence and action within you and through you to the world. A fancy way of saying, God, what are you up to right now? So it's spiritual direction. That's that's it. And and I we base it on Isaiah 55, 3. Uh, beautiful scripture, God speaking to all of us. He says, pay attention, come to me, listen so that your soul may live. And so I always like to ask, Do you want to live? And the answer is yes. But come to me. That's the idea today. Let's be aware that God is here. And now let's pay attention. Let's direct our focused attention upon his presence within you so that we may live. That's awesome. And then as we do that, opportunities for emotional and mental health insights and practices come along, right? Because again, we're it's all interconnected. Absolutely. Did I answer your question? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_02:So what when you're in that mode with a with a client, you know, what is it? So so asking those those three questions and intentions, how what does a typical session look like?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, great question. If if we were at a session, we'd meet like this or on Zoom. Most of my clientele are on Zoom here and around the world, but um I always ask, and it depends on the directee, but how I practice it, uh, I always say, Would you like to dive right in or hold some silence first? Most of the time, people choose silence first. As it's been said, silence is God's first language. Everything else is just a translation. And then you have Psalm 46, 10, be still and know that I am God. Another translation reads, Be silent and see that I am God. So I'd like to pare that down, James. In silence we see. And oftentimes we avoid silence. I know I do at times, because when I show up in silence, I'm there.
unknown:Right. Right.
SPEAKER_00:God's there and I'm there, and all my material, and and the human tendency can be to avoid some of that stuff, you know, distract ourselves, suppress it. So that's that space. That's how I would do. And then some clients hold silence for seven seconds. That's the that's that's their capacity. I have some, we'll sit in silence for 25 minutes. Wow. Just waiting. And then we sense the direct e-senses. I always say, and you can break the silence whenever you wish. A session is one hour. And then we I begin to ask questions. Out of the silence, I'll I'll ask, uh, did anything rise out of the silence? Usually the answer is yes. And if not, then I'll ask uh an establishing question. What's your current feelings and attitude towards God? Right? What image of God is sustaining your soul right now? Is there a question you want to ask God? We're filled with questions. Sometimes we forget. Right. Right? And then uh last about 55 minutes, and and then I end with a blessing. Nice. And give them a little homework, so to speak, maybe a scripture to meditate on, a uh a little practice to, you know, maybe a five-minute neurological reset or whatever it may be.
SPEAKER_02:So it's not a quick fix, like in this space, really in life, there really aren't any quick fixes. Yeah, you know, it's a as a process.
SPEAKER_00:I'm so glad you said that. We we don't fix people, we fix broken toasters. Right, right. When we when and people know when someone else wants to fix them, right, and you feel objectified. No, we're we're in the business, and what I mean by we is you, me, us humans, God, of transformation, yeah, of presence. Attention is presence on purpose. And in the presence of God and the presence of this holy silence, dude, you know it. Stuff just happens, man. Jesus is there. Yeah, he's forming and molding and creating. And there's no rush, there's no arrival. That's the arrival fallacy.
SPEAKER_02:I like that. It's like waking people up or allowing them to discover that God is is at work and always has been and and will be. You know, it's it's allowing God to do what he does best. And to me, that's that's um, I think that's liberating.
SPEAKER_00:I like how you use the word wake up. I I I love asking this question. What if life is a journey in Christ of learning to wake up before we die? Right. I want to freaking wake up, man. Yeah. You know, and we're an easily sleepy and forgetful people. That's how human are we allowed to be? But it this is the the exciting thing is the constant that scripture I quoted earlier: wake up, O sleeper, and rise from the dead. Light of Christ will illuminate you. That's not just a salvation moment, that's a constant invitation. Even in scripture, we read from the four corners of the earth, the peoples will remember and return. What are they remembering? What did they forget? Right. Right? We're an easily sleepy and forgetful people. So we get to help each other in this space of spiritual direction. It's it is that it's like, let's let's wake up just a little more, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, become you know, fully alive and and we use we throw the word around about being present and all these other words that, but there's truth behind that. It's really uh becoming truly aware of the moment and living in a moment and being able to you know see the beauty of God at work in us and around us. And to me, that's we we just go through life, we go through the motions, we we perform, we work, you know, we we have to we put up walls too and all of this as well. And to me, it's like stop. Yeah, just stop and be. We're so good about being human doings, we forget we're human beings, right? It's and I think that's that's that's a liberating way to look at that. Uh that's very powerful, Craig. I mean, thank you for being just vulnerable with us in the audience, just about sharing your journey and and the work that you're doing now to to share your experiences, but also to help others on their journey and to discover wholeness and discover freedom, really. I mean, really, that's that's a beautiful thing.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. And and you know, you you do that too, you know. We have you in in your own beautiful and unique ways, and it's a it's a privilege. It's we're all interconnected, man. The the greatest illusion, quoting Albert Einstein, is separation. It's true. You know, everything is contingent. I need you, you need me. We get to sublet our weaknesses. We're all more alike in our weaknesses than our strengths. And when you sit with someone in loving silence, holy presence, paying attention, uh it's all right there. Yeah, it's it's in you, yeah, your innermost being. It's right there. You have an anointing from the Holy One and you know the truth. The challenge is we're distracted from what we know a thousand times every minute.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, distraction or or the fear, you know, where there's so many things that are that are competing for that.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:And um, man, that's that's that kind of would be a good segue into when when we're when we are distracted or we are dealing with fear, when we are dealing with we see so much anxiety and stress. You know, everybody seems to be fighting back against that or fighting with that. Um what's one thing that you would maybe want people to understand about anxiety?
SPEAKER_00:Anxiety means something is important to you. Yeah, that's my first thing, is like it's it's okay, you know. And fundamentally, emotions are neutral, there's adaptive and maladaptive, but when when anxiety arises, you know, I I I like to say, James, where there's a lack of definition, there's distortion. So what if we take time to pay attention to uh whatever we're we're feeling? And uh fundamentally, I I I when we feel something, what we're only and ever feeling is a story. We feel narratives, meanings. So we say I'm anxious, and then the invitation is now we're back to Isaiah 55, 3, pay attention, come to me, listen so that your soul may live. Not just listen to God. What if everything in our lives, first and foremost, just want to be listened to? So for someone who's dealing with anxiety, uh how human are you allowed to be? Welcome to the human journey. Let's non-judgmentally observe and listen to the story. That could take five minutes, it could take five years. It's okay. We're here to listen. There's something meaningful here, otherwise you wouldn't be feeling it. So let's pay attention to it.
SPEAKER_02:So feelings, I like to say that feelings and emotions, you know, they tell us they do tell a story, but they're also it's it's data.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I like to say your feelings and emotions shouldn't be afraid of them. They are what they are. It's data, and you're getting this information. What are you doing with that information?
SPEAKER_00:I like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so sometimes that makes it maybe it makes it less um ethereal and makes it a little more tangible for people that might think more concretely in terms of you know, maybe more scientifically. But this is where I think we talk a lot in scripture on you know, renewing the mind. Um that's that's key. But we we dive in like what does that really mean? And this is where I think the overlap between um the mind, you know, renewing the mind scripturally and science comes together. And this is where I what I have to say. Say more, dude. Yeah, I want to hear what you have to say. So to me, this is the definition of neuroplasticity. Are you tracking?
SPEAKER_00:I knew you were gonna say that's what I was waiting for.
SPEAKER_02:That's awesome. So, so right. So, our brains, we have this capacity to to change and form new patterns in our brains. And so, as we renew our mind, okay, that's what does that mean, you know, spiritually, okay. We know what we could we've been taught what that means, but then the application is do you understand what that really means? What that does to our our physiology, yeah. What that does to our brains and our networks and how we wire and fire, you know, and so um taking those two ideas, scripture and science, working together. Talk to me about that.
SPEAKER_00:I have no clue. That's my first answer. But secondly, it is fun. Uh, I I think I think it's a way. What do you think about this, James? I think it's a way we worship God.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We're we're paying attention to how He's fearfully and wonderfully designed us to be. And we're not discounting all the systems at play, right? And so there's intrigue there. Yeah. So you have scripture, because I remember, yeah, read Romans 12, one, two, renew yourself. And then the classic idea is read the word and memorize it right on. And yet that we have systems that we can work with. We have neural network patterns. We have what continues to fire in the brain, we wire rewires the brain. Self-directed neuroplasticity. So now we get to engage certain practices, like even as simple as you take a scripture, great, you're reading scripture, you're memorizing it. Add a little self-directed neuroplastic uh exercise in the sense of take that scripture and write it. Don't type it, take it with your hand and write it down 10 times in a row every day for the next 21 days. You're feeding, you're creating new patterns of thinking. You're rewiring your brain. Isn't that interesting? So, on one hand, the renewing of her mind is write. This new thought you want to embody, this wonderful thought that God has about you in scripture, write it down. And it's almost like as you write it on paper, you're writing it up here. That's true. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Writing it, um, reading what you wrote so you hear it as well. And we know that faith comes by hearing and hearing and hearing and hearing. I also think that is a big part of it as well. Uh, a great way to rewire. Um, a great way to remember and to imprint in our brains for for long-term memory is an exercise where uh um I heard neuroscience talk about closing your right eye for five seconds after you have like read something that you want to remember.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_02:So, like maybe it's a scripture.
SPEAKER_00:Does that feed the other hemisphere? Yeah, the left the left side of the brain.
SPEAKER_02:So it really deeping deep, you know, memory recollection. They're teaching that to surgeons when they're visualizing how to do a surgery, a procedure, even med students and how to memorize data. Um it's a it's it's a fascinating tool.
SPEAKER_00:Have you do you tap here? Have you done this?
SPEAKER_02:Tapping, tapping, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So the idea of tapping here reduces subconscious resistance to the truth. Yeah. And so we can combine thought and feeling. That's what we want. Then it becomes embodied. And this is one way to do that too.
SPEAKER_02:The other thing, too, is attaching, you know, an emotion. If you can attach emotion to what you're visualizing, to what you're you're wanting, to the image. Okay, I want to renew myself. I'm struggling with this, I'm dealing with anxiety, I'm dealing with whatever it might be. To say, you know, I have the mind of Christ. I'm doing the five-second thing with my eye, I'm holding it for five seconds, I have the mind of Christ, and I just I'm silent with that for five seconds. I love that. And what does that feel like?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, and I'm so glad you're bringing up the feeling. Uh research reveals that the way we do affirmations, by and large, don't work. Right. Yeah. Because while we're saying a truth, we're not feeling it. Right. And so you're you're in giving us wonderful practices. Another uh, there's also power in specific phraseology. So if uh let's say uh we're angry, we're we have a pattern of anxiety in our life, and and I want to say, uh, I have the peace of Christ within me, all is well. I like that, right? But you're not feeling it. So some specific phraseology goes like this I choose to feel this reality. I have the peace of Christ within me. All is well. The moment you say I choose, your brain's saying, Oh, James is in charge. He's directing his focused attention. And then we say to feel, we're basically inviting our cellular memory, our somatic experience. Hey, we're gonna go here. Because the reality is, what's exciting about this is all the feel-good stuff you want to experience, it's already in you. Now we're talking about what you highlighted highlighted earlier, directed focused attention. Right. What has your focus has you.
SPEAKER_02:That's huge. Focus and attention. That's a whole other dude. That's a whole other podcast. Oh my gosh. You just said some words that that really speak to in our in our brains when we talk about our prefrontal cortex, right? Our ability to focus and have attention. And what is our prefrontal for prefrontal cortex? We can't edit that out looper there. That's okay. We'll just keep it and get a good chunk of it. The prefrontal cortex. What are we doing when we feed ourselves social media and screens and all this stuff? What are we what are we cra what are our brains craving? They're craving a neurotransmitter or two. Well, two of them. Specifically, one is dopamine, the other is noripernephrine. Powerful neurotransmitters that affect our you know attention, affect our moods. So there's this huge overlap and this boom in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Wow. Um when really when we look at our prefrontal cortex needing to be able to regulate, and there's a lot a lot of other parts of our brain, our reticular activating system, our amygdala, our hypocampus, the limbic system, um, you know, the anterior cingulate, you know, gyrus, these different places in our brains that are specifically uh charged with with certain functions. But attention and focus, that to me is is becoming an epidemic more and more and more. I mean, we're all, I mean, I struggle. I mean, I've I have ADHD, I've had all my life. Uh my response has always been to just plow through. And I've been able to do that for most of my life. But as I get older, it's harder for me to do. I'm noticing that it's a lot harder to keep all the plates spinning. And um, you know, I I think in my own situation or people like me, um, friends, family, patients, when we say we've, man, we've tried this and we've tried that, and I've prayed, and I just feel stuck. I've journaled, I I still feel anxious, or I still feel like my focus and intention are all over the place. When someone's stuck, that's where I'm going with this, Craig. I want you to get your perspective. When somebody feels stuck, they've done all the stuff, how do you help them break a cycle? How do you help them get out of that loop? How do you help them to just get back on track when they just feel stuck?
SPEAKER_00:If someone, great question, man. If someone were to come to me and say, I feel stuck, the uh the first thing I would engage to help them with is parts language. The moment we say I feel stuck, your brain is translating that as that is who you are. I'm stuck. I'm Craig. I'm stuck. Nice to meet you stuck. Right. Yeah, right? I'm afraid. Yeah, right. I say that with my kids all the time. They say, hey, I'm hungry. Nice to meet you, hungry.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, when they were little, yeah. Right.
SPEAKER_00:That doesn't work anymore. You see this um in scripture, the uh Naomi, you know, she said, Yeah, uh, don't call me Naomi, call me Mara, which means bitter. She was basically saying, I am bitterness. I am this is what I am. So the moment someone were to say, I'm stuck, I would say that that's great to say it out loud. Name it to tame it, that whole neurological idea. Scripturally, whatever is brought into the light becomes light. I would say, name it, just don't stop there. I'm stuck. Something in me feels stuck. And what that's what's happening is like this. Here's James, here's stuck. I'm stuck. Well, who's who? This is a good beginning. Don't stop there. Let me do this. Something in me feels stuck. You create this objective distance. Now you become the observer of your human experience rather than victimized by it. That's huge. Right? So we're just creating this distance because the truth is the moment you're feeling one thing, there's a thousand other parts of you that aren't. And and when we call the part the whole, we increase our suffering. And so it's a very simple little kind of you get that idea from internal family systems kind of a thing, but but it's very very it's it's called pausing with emotion. I feel this, a part of me feels this, or I feel this, something in me feels this, right? And you create that objective distance and just stay there in this non-judgmental, curious observation. I'd like to say from that point, James, uh we're a co-investigator with the Holy Spirit of what we're sensing, feeling, and perceiving rather than a victim to what we're sensing, feeling, and experiencing. So then I'm stuck, something in me feels stuck. Oh, something in you feels stuck. What are some other parts of you that don't feel stuck? They're always there. And if you notice, all we're doing is directing focused attention. When Paul said, think on those things that are good, lovely, and pure, he's talking about attention, directing attention, collagen, set your mind on things above. And then what I want to say is that's great, Paul. And you're ticking me off because it's really hard. Yeah, that's right. Because we have a negativity bias. Yeah. So anyway, this to go back to the stuck part, that's the first thing I try to help people with is create that objective distance. And then let's listen to the narrative non-judgmentally. We're not going to examine right away what's true, false. Let's just write it down or speak it out. There's a story there, as we talked about earlier. There's a story here. And then it starts to unfold, then we can find out how old the story is, and what level of truth and fiction are comprising that story.
SPEAKER_02:I love that because I think that's a great way to get out of this shame and pain cycle, the shame of feeling stuck. I am this, I am that, instead of, you know, and we use the word holding space, right? Holding space, becoming an observer to the emotion, be observed what's going on, to kind of step outside yourself and look inside and say, oh, okay. You know, I I don't have to, you know, I am I I am not that. I'm feeling that. I'm experiencing that.
SPEAKER_00:Dude.
SPEAKER_02:And that's that's great. And that's just a wonderful way too when we start to take on that that shame in that in that pain.
SPEAKER_00:Um I just I was I'm interrupting you. Yeah, no, hey, but I just uh I I just was talking with a woman the other day who called me. She was in a moment, it's like I I I feel so disabled, so disappointed. I'm so I'm disappointed in myself that I'm ruminating. I said, Why are you ruminating? I don't know. I just said, could it be because you're human?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's like, okay. And I said, and when you say I'm disappointed in in myself, that's just something in you that feels disappointed. And she woke up a little more. It's like there was the distance. Oh, you're right, you're right. And then we listen to the story. And I'm not exaggerating in five minutes, we're able to diag not diagnose, listen to the story, dialogue. You're letting light in. That's it. That what that which is brought into the light becomes light. And I love how you mention the word space. You remind me of the the Victor Frankel quote. Yeah. Dude, yeah, between stimulus and response is a space. That's right. In that space is our power to choose, and our power to choose lies our freedom. And the attention, uh, the challenge with attention today, another way to describe it is it's a challenge of us being unable to take that space. We're we're we're ill-trained at holding that space. Call it pause, silence, stillness, whatever it may be. Yeah. Because the stimuli will always happen. Absolutely. That's not that's not going to internally, it's there. It's a Gary, it's that's permanent, right? But we can pause, whether we feel stuck, anxious, whatever, and and listen, hold the space, breathe, engage all of these ways so that we can have greater conscious emotional response and decreased unconscious emotional reaction. Yeah, that's powerful. That is great stuff. And it's a practice. It is. For sure.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, anything in life when it comes to improving our condition, it takes work. I mean, we don't go from you know morbidly obese to, you know, an appropriate healthy, you know, body mass index of BMI, right? A healthy weight. We don't go from a very brittle diabetic to controlled blood sugars overnight. It takes time, it's a process. And just like in our bodies, I mean, our brain, we're talking, I mean, in essence, we're talking about brain health as it and then how we what we can do practically to to really help heal our brains, our minds, our our our souls. Um, but there's so many things too we can be doing to enhance our brain health as well. And there's so many other, you know, modalities uh to dive deeper into improving the quality of our brains, our brain health, our behavioral health, our mental, emotional, yeah, spiritual health.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right on, dude.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and that's that's maybe we'll I'll spend some time and we'll dive deeper on the on the more of the biological and physiological side of things. When we talk about sleep and nutrition and and supplementation and hormone balance, cortisol, all these things that negatively and positively, you know, affect our our brain health, our connections.
SPEAKER_00:I remember when I saw my first psychiatrist or psychologist, whatever it was, uh in in the depths of my depression. The first question he asked me just ticked me off. Because I'm there thinking, you know, my problem's up here, it's all up here, right? And he said asks me this do you exercise? That was the question. And in my head, I'm like, why are you asking about physical? I'm not here about an exercise regimen. I'm here because my mind is tormenting me. Of course, later on I learned, oh, this is huge. I call it the body door. Go through the body door first.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Exercise, massive component, huge benefits to our brains.
SPEAKER_02:Uh helps to diminish our risk for Alzheimer's and dementia, significantly increases blood flow to our brains. And really, it's about proper blood flow, maintaining blood flow in our brains. Um, you know, and there's there are times when when, you know, when we look at I I always look for natural ways, integrative ways to to solve a problem with my patients when I can. But there are times where where sometimes medications are still needed to kind of help balance that out. So I mean, I don't hear you saying that you're anti-meds if people need meds, but you'll know when you're healed as you did. Because a lot of my patients, when you were able to say, I'm feeling crummy on these meds, I'm having the negative side effects of them, you'll know when it's time to come off of those. And and and a clinician that is aware and in tune of of that will would hopefully work with somebody to get them off meds when they don't need them anymore.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that too. I'm I'm not anti-meds. I I'm like, I'm I'm I'm all for any legal stuff. Yeah, I mean, along this journey, you know, if you if you need to be on lithium like I was, and there are better things now than lithium. Amen, dude. Right. Thank God. I did not like that one.
SPEAKER_02:But even so, I mean, if if somebody needs something for a time, it's not like it's not one size fits all. And and I think that, you know, a lot of times conventional medicine has has done a real disservice to the whole person in terms of just focusing on a pharmacological answer to something rather than the broader. And they did ask questions like you mentioned, some are really talking about your nutrition. How do you eat?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, because we do know that even that obesity carry is a huge you know, risk for for mental health issues and progression of you know, degenerate neurodegenerative diseases. Um, you know, we look at alcohol. Alcohol is toxic to the brain. Uh, and no condemnation for people who have an occasional drink here and there. We're not saying I love beer. Where's the camera? I I love beer. That's a good time to correct that sponsored by Bush. No, but but it is. It really is not great for our brain. You're right. But either is not sleeping, and too much stress, too much cortisol. You know, there are things if our if we're deficient in our hormones, if we're deficient in vitamin D, omega-3s. Um, you know, there's so many things we can do holistically to help people. And again, it's the way I look at it is it's not either or it's both and sometimes we need the best of conventional therapies, and obviously the best that we can of alternative, integrative, holistic, you know, naturopathic, homeopathic alternatives where we can to help people. Right. On top of a foundation of, you know, the right mindset, the right understanding of who you are. Because a lot of what we're offering people is external, is outside in. What you're offering people is inside out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well and well said. Yeah. It's wow, that's wild. Even today I was meeting with a guy in Iceland, and we landed on the idea of uh of just what you said. It's like you do you know who you are? And the answer is no. But isn't that the whole idea? Like Jesus came to show us who we are. Right. Yeah. Right? He's the perfect image, he's the exemplar. And uh when we forget who we are, and again, it there's I sometimes I know who I am, sometimes I don't, and there's an invitation to wake up again and be honest with ourselves. Oh, totally. It's like I we can we can fool ourselves very easily. Oh, my I'm I'm I'm just glad you said that. I want to stick a bit that that's when we know who we are, we we travel well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's right. When we can be honest with ourselves, then we can really be honest with people around us and the world around us, and then that's where the authentic person comes out. The authenticity is so valuable, it's so important. People know when you're not real, people know when you're when you're for the most part, that most people can see through that. Maybe some people can't, but you know, it's what a horrible place to to live where you're constantly trying to live up to an image that we started the podcast with that about trying to maintain and and we have these things naturally within us. It doesn't make us bad at this imposter syndrome where we're you know, we're we're maybe show up one way at work and maybe we feel another way at home, but that's not what we're talking about. It's a different deal that we all face. We're talking about truly like I want to say use the word fake, but we're true, we we really are not being true to who we really are. Because there's times where I can be truly a healer and show up for my patients and then be exhausted when I get home and be a grouchier at home. It doesn't make me too, you know, people per se. It's just the it's just part of my humanity, as we talked about about being human. But it's exhausting when you're really trying to be somebody you're not or live in a in a uh in a way that that doesn't align. There's not alignment. And I think that's what we're really wanting to encourage people. And I'm trying to encourage myself. I'm not there, I'm in, I'm on my journey, I'm trying. I'm in, I'm a work in progress. But it's but uh I'm learning to in these moments to embrace that and to have a lot more grace for myself than I used to, beat myself up and be able to tell, as we talked about, being able to say, that's not who I am. I might be feeling that. But I can, and as you've said so beautifully, be you know, to observe what's going on. And I like to say hold space, be an observer to my emotions. And it works in relationships too. That's a whole other episode you could talk about is how do you how do you hold space for others? How do you not get triggered when somebody says something? How do you how do you not get in your pain when someone steps on your bruises and and you know, create this whole pain cycle and shame cycle and all this stuff, and then spiral out of control until it all devolves into chaos. Yeah. Um, something that I'm still working on, you know. Um, I think when you have people in your life, when you have community, there's that opportunity. But that's where iron sharpens iron.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, absolutely. You know, again, we're only an ever learning practicing and becoming. There's no arrival until he arrives. So the pressure's off. But uh, and I love all the pattern disruptors that God allows in our lives. You know, most recently, mine is a one-eyed dog named Dave. He's a five-month-old puppy that we have. And have you ever had those moments where you think, um, wow, I'm I'm spiritual. I think, I think I'm all that in a bag of chips. And it's like God witnesses this because he perceives our heart and he's like, Oh, Craig's at it again. And he throws a one-eyed dog named Dave in my life. Right? And then weeks go by and an angel comes up to God and says, Hey, God, remember Craig and Dave? And he's like, Yeah, I have a question for you. What's the question? Well, which one is the dog? Oh my God. Yeah. Right? And then I'm reminded again that there's opportunities of how I've been behaving and reacting instead of you know having conscious emotional response and just an audit take it to recently in my life, it just literally took a one-eyed dog named Dave. You know. Wow. But no shame.
SPEAKER_02:There's a thorn in the flesh. Right. Yeah, like Lord's. You know, the dog that chewed on my these. Yeah, yeah. Well, hey. So if someone's listening and they're in a dark place, and maybe they feel hopeless, maybe they're feeling depressed or anxious, at this moment, what would you say to them?
SPEAKER_00:This might sound a little crass, but I would say um I would want to hug them and hold them and say, hey, don't take your pain too personally. And what I mean by that is uh you're not alone. But whatever you're experiencing, millions of others around this world are too. And so just know that. Because in in in the midst of depression and the lows, and uh one of the first things that rises up in us is I'm alone. And then that's exactly what the enemy wants to convince us of. And so I kind of like to hopefully give them a little smile. It's like, don't take your suffering too personally. We're gonna take it seriously, but don't take it too personally. You're not alone. Yours is a shared suffering. There is a communion, a communal experience in our pain and suffering. And yes, it hurts, and it's it and it it sucks, and we can get angry at it. Uh, but know that you're you're not alone. And are we open to change? Are we open to learning? And what I mean by that is, you know, you pull that out of a little the idea of chaos theory. Uh but because 10 years of clinical depression, you talk about an experience of mental chaos, right? But out of chaos theory, there's a novelty in the midst of chaos, always waiting to arise if the system is open to change. And that's a way of saying, uh, are you are you open to learning? There's a when you're feeling whatever you're feeling on a negative scale, an overwhelming scale, and positive as well. But we'll uh just to your point, uh if you're open to learning, we're gonna make it. We're going to make it right learning, practicing, becoming. And there were moments where I wasn't open to learning, and I just suffered a little longer. You know, it's like the two thieves on the cross. The ungrateful thief. He you could see it just putting in my own words, he he was blaming Jesus for him up there. Right. If you are the Son of God, get us down. He he he wasn't owning his own story. Uh the grateful thief we know, he owned it. Can't you see this man's done nothing wrong? Jesus remembered me. We know that story. What's interesting is the ungrateful thief. It's like the grateful thief was open to learning and acceptance and self-acceptance and ownership. Yeah, here's where we are. The ungrateful thief was not. And the bummer is this he suffered alone even though Jesus was right next to him. The grateful thief found fellowship in his suffering. They were both on the cross. One owned their experience non-judgmentally, the other one was angry vitriol, this. And it just gre it grieves me to think he was right next to Jesus and yet he suffered alone. And that's that's deep.
SPEAKER_02:That hits. Because how often do we do we suffer needlessly? Yeah. Right? Why do we, why do we? And it's like, and a lot of people that have, you know, who because of their own choices, they're in a bad situation, or because they truly did nothing wrong, but you know, they were wronged by someone else. And there's so many different ways to to handle that and to respond. But I like the response. It's like however you wherever you find yourself, whether you're the prodigal or some bad things happen to you along the way. What are you gonna do with that? What is your what is your response? And what are you going to do to allow God in? What are you going to do to, in essence, what I'm hearing you say is to how can you not take ownership of what happened or where you find yourself, but to take ownership of your response, to take ownership of what can I do now? Am I willing to learn? Am I willing to be coached? Am I coachable? Am I teachable? What can I what can I learn in this moment? Not for the sake of learning or education, but for the sake of transformation.
SPEAKER_00:You just nailed it. That's what I mean. That's beautiful. I I love that.
SPEAKER_02:That really resonates with me because I know I have, and even to this day at times, I suffer needlessly. I shouldn't, I mean, suffering is part of this journey. We get it. Being on this planet, being uh at this time in history, right? Here we're here in this moment. Yet we're not alone. There's always hope. And, you know, what are we gonna do with what we've what we've been given? What do we do with what's in our hands? What do we do with this gift that's been given to us? And and at times we we we don't we don't run to the source, we don't run to truth, we don't let the light in. And I think that we have opportunities to I think acknowledge that and to be able to find um to find a way forward and to let the light in. I just keep thinking of of the start of this program when you when you shared your story and just how you were, you know, in the muck, in the junk, in the tar. Yeah. And and you know, your suffering in that moment, and then how a beautiful picture of of of light and an angel just coming in and and you know, transforming that situation. That's a great picture, and that gives me hope. And I hope that gives other people hope that are listening, that that God cares, He sees you where you're at, and He loves you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I think that's a great place for us to you know maybe wind down a little bit is that healing isn't necessarily an instant. There are instant moments, but it's still a journey, and there's there's there's suddenlies, and there's but in this, you know, it's a journey of renewal. It's a it's allowing God to reshape our minds and our hearts, you know, from the inside out.
SPEAKER_00:That's good, James. I I'd like to borrow a psalm that says uh he illuminates my darkness. And to your point, yes, there are moments of quick miraculous healing. Amen. Right on. But can we all kind of acknowledge it? Seems more like the patient process of illumination, yeah. Yeah, of transforming illumination. The light just slowly gets brighter. And I think one of the reasons is because he wants us to be able to, to varying degrees, perceive and understand what was that? Who am I now? What was I then? Who is Christ to me? Who am I to Christ? And we're learning in the illumination.
SPEAKER_02:And when we talk about, you know, maybe God's word or God being, you know, a light into our path. What does a path imply? It implies a journey, it implies walking out, so it's it's a process. Yeah, it's knowing where to do the next right thing, take the next right step. And maybe that's for some people to reach out to you, Craig. How can people connect with you or learn more about what you're doing?
SPEAKER_00:Themesobjective.org is our website. I guess that's as simple. You can find us right there.
SPEAKER_02:The meshobjective.org. Excellent. So I hope people that are needing uh some help and some you know uh spiritual direction, you know, if I'm an awesome spiritual spiritual director, and I know there's there's several of you that provide a spiritual uh directorship, um, I think that's fantastic. So again, if you're listening and and struggling, again, you're not alone. Reach out for help. Talk to someone. And remember that God's grace is right there. And he's willing to meet you right where you're at. And again, thank you, Craig, for for being with us today. And I this was a very meaningful conversation to me. It blessed me, and I hope it blesses our friends that are listening. Thanks for your time today, my friend.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. I want to learn more from you, dude. Yeah, we'll we'll hang out and talk some more. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks for joining.